Escalar uma marca de vinho para 30 milhoes de garrafas, tecnicas de vendas e o futuro do mercado do vinho com Robin Copestick

00:00:00 Robin Copestick: I think the younger generation care a lot more about positions and job titles. I'm almost certain that I was called a sales rep and I was absolutely delighted to do that. We, we don't call people sales reps anymore. We get call them business development executives or, something else.

00:00:14 If you just look at the top 10 brands in the UK, if you include sparkling, only three of them existed 25 years ago.

00:00:24 I think the tariff thing with the US will settle down. The US is a massive market. The tariffs, the implications of the tariffs are not so significant when you look at pricing in the us. There is a lot of wines being sold at a much higher price point than in the UK and most of Europe in the US.

00:00:41 Giovanni Binello: This is Dolia Talks with me, Giovanni Binello. Now, Dolia Talks is the show we discuss with the best sales and marketing professionals in the world of wine, spirits, and beverages in general.

00:00:49 Our guest today is Robin Copestick. Robin is a true legend in the world of wine. He founded iHeart, growing it from a few hundred thousand bottles to more than 30 million bottles last year.

00:00:59 Today he's the managing director of Freixenet-Copestick and he a non-executive executive director at Packamama, a startup that is revolutionizing wine packaging.

00:01:07 This is a truly great show. Robin gave us a ton of insight, a ton of data on the world of wine, so I really think you will enjoy this. As usual, if you have any feedback, suggestions, or ideas on future guests, feel free to write an email at [email protected]. Enjoy the show.

00:01:25 Giovanni Binello: Hey Robin, welcome to the podcast. It's a pleasure to have you here and I'm super excited for this.

00:01:29 Robin Copestick: Thank you very much. Good to be here.

00:01:31 Giovanni Binello: So, to start things off I would like to start from a small introduction from yourself. So if you can just maybe tell us how you got initially into the world of wine and, tell us a bit more about what you do now.

00:01:42 Robin Copestick: Sure. So I'm now 40 plus years in the wine industry, which is quite a frightening thought. I'm currently managing director of Freixenet-Copestick in the UK. I'm also a non-executive director for a company called Packamama, which is a sustainable packaging company. And also I do some global projects for Henkell Freixenet, which is the company that owns Freixenet-Copestick. So I help look after some of the Nordic markets, the Benelux Markets, Ireland, and I'm also in charge of the iHeart brand for global sales around the world. My story of how it started, it was a bit of an accident. I was in London as a 19-year-old studying in London, and London is, and was then, a very expensive city. And I ran outta money pretty quickly. And I knew I needed to get a part-time job. And I was living in Maida Vale and I saw there was a Spanish wine shop, which had an advert for part-time sales person to work in their shop, and walked in and a very nice gentleman called Juan Moreno, who was the owner of the shop - it was called Moreno Wine, It was his business - and he gave me a go and I got on incredibly well with him and ended up staying in that company for round about 19 years. And, yeah, learned a lot about wine, learned a lot about the industry, learned a lot about the business, and I feel very fortunate that I walked in through the door on that day.

00:03:28 Giovanni Binello: Is there something from those early days that you still bring with yourself in your current experience?

00:03:35 Robin Copestick: Well, I think the great thing about working there is that I basically got the opportunity to do every single job that there was. So I was in charge of the shop pipe, took deliveries, I did deliveries, I did credit control, I did invoicing. I became their first sales person, their first sales director, I became a very young joint managing director, I was involved in marketing. So I think now when I am... When I'm running a company of over 100, 150 people, obviously the technology has changed and the industry has changed, but I do have an empathy for what all the team that work for Freixenet-Copestick do, and the challenges even though they are slightly different, it does give me a quite a rounded experience. And I hope that that comes across to them when they talk to me about the challenges that they go through. And it's not always possible for everybody, but it was a great experience to learn and to see every aspect of the business and how a business can run.

00:04:49 Giovanni Binello: So, you started at 19. So let's say you had a chance to walk through London and you bump into yourself at 19, what would you tell yourself? Would you tell him to still go into the shop or would you tell him to maybe do something else?

00:05:05 Robin Copestick: 100%, I'd push him through the door, without a doubt. I'd probably say, why didn't you, why didn't you go in yesterday when you saw the notice? Why did you wait today? The job might have gone. Look from those days, I could not imagine that I would achieve what I have achieved. It's incredible and I'm very proud of that. And very proud of the company. And I'm very proud of all the people that work for the company. And I've made some great friends, so it would be childish to have any regrets or to change anything because I've obviously made many, many mistakes, but you never know whether those mistakes might have led to something very positive. So I wouldn't change anything. But what I would do or, like to have done is I've been to some incredible places and I started traveling to Spain in the mid eighties. Then Moreno Wines discovered South American wine in the mid nineties, so I was one of the first of the UK wine people to travel to Chile and Argentina. Then when I worked for McGuiggan, which is now Australian Vintage, I went to Australia a lot. When I started Copestick Murray, I then started traveling to most places in the wine world, and I've loved the travel side of it. I've met some brilliant people. I've been to some great places. I'm really bad at keeping records of taking photos. In hindsight, I would tell the young Robin to take some pictures and keep a diary because I'd love some sort of aid memoir to everything I've done. I think it would be a good read when I finally stop working. So that's my only regret.

00:06:52 Giovanni Binello: Nice. Then looking forward to that memoir then.

00:06:56 So you started really at that age, and do you think there's still space for someone that's 19 in 2025? Do you think there's still space to do something like you did and just walk into a shop and start working in wine? Or do you think things changed in terms of careers in wine?

00:07:16 Robin Copestick: I mean, there's no doubt the industry has changed. But I think anybody who's entrepreneurial, who's prepared to work hard and prepared to learn, I think there's always gonna be opportunity, and there's always gonna be opportunity for entrepreneurs that it is difficult in different ways, in, another ways. As you can see around the world, it's... There are lots of young entrepreneurs springing up who are doing incredibly well at a very young age. So it's different, but I still believe the opportunity is there for sure.

00:07:51 Giovanni Binello: Which advice would you give to someone young that wants maybe to start a career in wine sales. Do you think it's better to start from a small establishment, go to a big one, go directly to a producer? Which do you think is the best starting point for a sales career?

00:08:09 Robin Copestick: I think that's quite a difficult question. A lot depends on the individual. But what I would say is that it definitely helps if you believe and if you trust in the product that you are selling. And I think that's the most important thing. So irrespective of the size of the company, or whether it's a producer or an agent or a distributor, just make sure that you have a passion for the product that you're selling, because that makes your job so much easier and it makes it more enjoyable and it means that you are more convincing as a representative of that company.

00:08:46 Giovanni Binello: Do you think young people still have what it takes and still have the skills to work as sales reps or do you see them maybe going through different careers? I mean, you think there's still space for young people to work as sales reps in wine?

00:09:02 Robin Copestick: A hundred percent. But I think the younger generation care a lot more about positions and job titles. I'm almost certain that I was called a sales rep and I was absolutely delighted to do that. We don't call people sales reps anymore. We get to call them business development executives, or something else. But the job is the same. And the act of selling wine is definitely a different beast of what it used to be. But the principles are still the same. Even if you have to go about it in a slightly different way.

00:09:35 Giovanni Binello: So you mentioned iHeart before. Uh, so that's a bit the story of how you created one of the largest wine brand in the UK, you know? So walk us through the origin story of the brand, and how you tackled the brand building process from the beginning.

00:09:55 Robin Copestick: So iHeart was really developed about five years after we started Copestick Murray. We started Copestick Murray in 2005, and in 2010 we had a company, we had about 12 people in the UK. We'd already started a company in the US that was principally importing and distributing wines for the Tesco operation in the USA and doing a lot of different wine brands, different wine labels. So we'd been very successful in a short space of time, but the business in the UK needed to change quite quickly. And I was very conscious that we had been building brands for big producers and we'd been making sort of bespoke third party labels, private labels for big retailers. So I knew that we were very good at the creation side of it, and I was very conscious that we should start becoming masters of our own destiny and that we should own our own brands. So we had a series of meetings with the team in the UK, many of whom were very creative types. And at one of the meetings we had lots and lots of good ideas, but nothing that I thought was sort of groundbreaking until right at the end of the meeting, one of the ladies, called Rachel Archer, who now works for Off-Piste, I think she was sitting on my right. She was sitting next to me and she, she was, well, she still is a very creative person, but also quite and reserved sometimes, and she'd been a bit silent during the meeting, but at the end of the meeting, she just passed me this piece of paper and it very simply had a, it was like a sketch with a big capital I, and then a heart, and then Pinot Grigio.

00:11:49 And I looked at it and I just, I had this amazing feeling that I was looking at something that was gonna be very successful. I said, would you mind if I took the little doodle, the little sketch away? And she said no. And the next day I, our office was in Marlborough, in Wilshire at the time, but I was still living in London. And our label designer was a guy called Kevin Shaw, who still runs Stranger and Stranger. He was based in London at the time in Carnaby Street. He's now moved to America. But I arranged to see him early in the morning and I took him this sketch and he had basically the same reaction as me at perspectives.

00:12:30 There are a few more expletives, and he was a bit, he was actually a bit annoyed that he hadn't had the idea. And he said to me, you know, it's always the simplest ideas that are the best. And he was quite amazing from that point onwards because even though it wasn't his creation, he really helped us with the label design and the trademark.

00:12:54 So he gave us something that meant that we could have a trademark that nobody... We weren't infringing anybody else's trademark. And we also had something that was defendable, which is obviously important when you're creating a brand. And very quickly I made Rachel the brand manager and we had immediate success. We got it into Tesco in the US in the operation that's now closed, but that showed us how successful the product could be, even though it was in California. It outsold Barefoot pretty much from day one, which was the number one sort of lifestyle brand of the time. And that gave us the, the real confidence to launch in the UK. And we very quickly grew. I think the first year we sold 200,000 bottles. The second year it was more like 2 million. And then sales have ramped up pretty much every year since then. The best year was I believe about 32 and a half million bottles. We had a bit of a dip last year, but we'll be back to that level very quickly. And then we're aiming for sort of 40 million and then 50 million by 2030, all achievable targets. It's been a very enjoyable journey, very satisfying, and great. Nice to be disruptive and successful at the same time. So it's been a lot of fun.

00:14:19 Giovanni Binello: Which do you think, because you had success really from the start, so which do you think were the main drivers of that success?

00:14:30 Robin Copestick: I think what we created was something that, as I said it, the, the simple ideas are often the best. So wine is a very confusing and intimidating topic for most wine consumers. But what we, in our minds, at Copestick Murray at the time, what we had realized was that the wine consumer in the UK and and the same in the US had got a bit more of a knowledge than they had maybe 10 years before about what they liked and they didn't like. So things like Pinot Grigio, Sauvignon Blanc would become very popular. A little bit down the line for iHeart, Prosecco becoming very popular. So people knew what type of wine they liked, but when they walk into a shop, they're hit with a wall of wine. It's very confusing. It's very intimidating. They don't know what they're looking at. And just not a very enjoyable experience. And suddenly this label stood out. If you think about the iHeart design, it's something that, that is in modern day life. So if you go into airports, you often see I love duty free. Obviously there's I love New York. So it's a symbol. It's a sign that people are comfortable with and then suddenly, there it is. It's Sauvignon Blanc. That's what I like. I love that Sauvignon Blanc I had the other day, I'm gonna buy it. So it was really the simplicity and also the striking aspect of the label that made it stand out on shelf.

00:15:58 And then obviously from our side, we just had to make sure that we had the right quality in the bottle so that people would buy the second bottle. Because often it's easy to get them to buy the first, but you need to keep that quality aspect going so that they keep having the repeat purchase. That's not a secret. It's the simplicity, it's the ease, it's making customers feel comfortable with their purchase. And I think then the other aspect about iHeart, which is unique really to iHeart, is that when the consumer makes that purchase decision, they are giving information to the retailer and to the brand owner. They're saying, I love Pinot Grigio. I love Sauvignon Blanc. Whereas normally it's the brand that's trying to pull the... Give the information to the consumer, and this way, the consumer's saying something to the retailer and the brand owner. So yeah, it's been a lot of fun, and still very grateful to Rachel for the idea.

00:16:58 Giovanni Binello: And, okay, so once you have the brand, you have the label. How did you approach distribution? Was it, uh, supermarkets right away, did you also go through HoReCa? How did it work?

00:17:09 Robin Copestick: As I said, we launched in the... We had this rather unique relationship with Tesco in the USA, so we were doing all of their imported wines into the US, and they liked it. They were a smallish company at the time, so they were able to launch really quickly. So I think that launch probably only took about six to nine months from the time that we had the label. For the UK it was a bit more difficult. The supermarkets in the UK were, some of them liked it, some of them didn't. But they wanted us to prove that it would work well before they would take the leap. So one of our sales guys, Stuart Bond, he was very good in the convenience sector, and he took it to those convenience retailers and they really got behind it. And not only did they do well out of it, and they still do very well out of it - iHeart is one of the key brands in the convenience sector in the UK - but that then gave our sales team the confidence to go to the main supermarkets to say, okay, so you gave us this challenge. Here's the proof. You know, the product is working. You can see the rate of sale is working and it didn't take long for the supermarkets to start buying the product after that.

00:18:27 Giovanni Binello: Do you think something like iHeart could still... If you had the same meeting again today, do you think the same brand could come to life and have the same success today? Or is it something that's, that worked before it was launched 10, 15 years ago?

00:18:46 Robin Copestick: No, I think there is room for new brands all the time. But, you know, you need a lot of luck. You need a bit of timing. You need the right argument, you need the right data, you need the right quality of wine. But if you just look at the top 10 brands in the UK, when I had a look the other day, I think of the top 10 total wine brands in the UK, if you include sparkling, if my memory serves me right, only three of them existed 25 years ago. So that means seven of those top 10 brands, you know, weren't even in existence 25 years ago. And there are a few very recent entrants into that top 10. So clearly consumers in the UK and other markets like innovation, they like new brands. But it's a slightly different science now to create a new brand and, and to have success with a new brand, but definitely there's still opportunity.

00:19:47 Giovanni Binello: Which role do you think will direct sales play in the future? Do you think we'll see growth of direct sales compared to intermediated channels like distributions or agencies or how do you think the mix will evolve in terms of distribution?

00:20:04 Robin Copestick: Direct sales are important, but they're probably overrated in terms of the importance in terms of scale. So I think direct sales are very good to build the brand, to build the credibility of the brand, to create a sort of fan club for your brand. They're very good for special editions, they're very good for trialing a new product. But in almost every market in the world, the bulk of the sales are done in the retailers. And that won't be replaced. So I don't think you can mistake what success of a direct sale looks like in terms of the scale and in terms of the overall amount of cases that you'll sell and the overall profitability. But, but it's still an important aspect of building a brand.

00:20:55 Giovanni Binello: I was speaking to a couple of producers of natural wine, and of course those are a bit more niche wines that push a lot on direct sales, a lot on digital, a lot on branding and flashy branding. What, are your views on that market? So do you think it's, it'll grow, do you think it will remain a niche market? What do you see that's working on that side?

00:21:22 Robin Copestick: I think it will always remain relatively niche because you'll never... I don't think it's possible to produce natural wine in the sort of volumes to make it anything more than niche, but still relevant, still interesting. I like the way that the market is developing there's a lot better quality. The natural wines I've tasted recently have generally been a lot better than what I was trying five or six years ago, so an interesting side of the market, but probably always remaining niche in my opinion.

00:22:02 Giovanni Binello: I read an interview you gave a while ago, and you were mentioning the fact that successful brands need a 360° degrees approach to sales. Can you break down what does that mean and how can sales teams and commercial teams create this approach, and why do you think that not everyone is doing it?

00:22:25 Robin Copestick: For me, a true 360 degree approach means understanding and integrating every stage of the product's life. And this is from grape growing to wine making, to packaging, to logistics, to retail, to customer engagement, to exciting the customer. You've gotta use all aspects of the modern communication. So social, you've gotta be transparent. So, you've got to understand that customers care more about what's in the bottle and they care more about sustainability than they used to. So you've got to get this whole approach right, and you have to have your sales team understanding this total approach, so that they are delivering your message when they're seeing their customers. And, and the sales team need to understand every aspect of the story. So that when they're seeing their customer, the customer has got total belief not just in the product, but that that company behind that brand will pull customers towards them. Because I always believe with the big retailers that you are, you're basically renting space from them. And the successful products are the ones that can actually drive business and traffic into their stores, not just rely on their customers coming to buy your product. And so that's really what I mean about the 360. It's a total approach and it's a total integration of every stage of the product's life.

00:23:56 Giovanni Binello: I want to, switch a bit the topic, I'll tell you a sentence and you tell me if you agree or disagree and why. We are going towards a very polarized market where there are, okay, all the fine wines, super expensive wines on the premium side. And then we have the low price side and these two sides are the ones that will polarize much of sales in the coming years. And then we have the niche brands, which will still play a role. The middle brands, that position themselves between low budget and high budget will have a lot of challenges in the coming years. Do you agree or disagree?

00:24:36 Robin Copestick: I agree.

00:24:36 Giovanni Binello: Okay. Why?

00:24:40 Robin: I think the middle is always a hard place to be no matter what industry you're in. And wine is no different. And that's not to say that if you're in the middle, you are not going to succeed. But it is a tough place because if you think about, if you are in the middle, you're probably gonna be too expensive for mainstream sales, but you're not going to be premium enough for the fine wine segment that you mentioned. So, we have quite a lot of brands in the middle, and you have to work really hard. And there's nothing wrong with working really hard, but it is difficult and as I said some of them will succeed. But it is a difficult place to be.

00:25:17 Giovanni Binello: Do you think we see a lot of repositioning towards maybe the more premium segment? Or maybe will we see brands consolidating into larger conglomerates? So what do you think would happen?

00:25:28 Robin Copestick: I don't think you can just become premium. Because really all you're doing is putting the price up for no reason. So I don't think that will work. I think that, you've just got to work extra hard to find more distribution points, you've got to find more customers. You've got to find ways of attracting the consumer, of doing things better and differently to succeed in that space. I don't think we're gonna move to a, necessarily to a more premium market. Honestly, I think we have the right sort of balance at the moment. I mean, wine is a fantastic industry to be in. We've got some of the very best product in the world and then we've got some of the very best brands in the world at the more everyday level. And then we've got some fantastic products in the middle and it's, it's amazing. Maybe there are too many really, there are too many brands. There are too many wine growers in the world to, make it successful. If you compare it to beer, there are, you know, there are thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands more. But, it's still a great place to be and it's still a wonderful industry to work in.

00:26:38 Giovanni Binello: So now of course the news of this year, of course, has been the tariffs in the US. I come from an area, where they make Prosecco and the US is I think, 80 or 90% of the export of Prosecco. So that's the far larger majority of sales. Which do you think, I mean as sales in the US are going down, do you see there are more other promising markets for export? Do you think we still go and sell to the US from Europe? So what do you see, do you think will happen in terms of exports?

00:27:11 Robin Copestick: I think the tariff thing with the US without wanting to belittle the importance of the tariffs, I think that will settle down. The US is a massive market. The tariffs, the implications of the tariffs are not so significant when you look at pricing in the US. There is a lot of wines being sold at a much higher price point than in the UK and most of Europe in the US. So either producers and retailers and distributors and importers can decide to put the price up, or maybe they can assume some of that loss margin in their own P&L. But whatever they do, I have a feeling that it won't have as significant an impact as everybody thinks. It's definitely had an impact in the short term because there's been so much uncertainty that some people have just taken the opportunity to stop shipment. So that's potentially lost sales. But, as things settle down, I have a feeling that it will work itself out and then, in terms of the question about other markets, I mean, of course all the markets are interesting. I can see potential in places like India, which is a bit unexplored so far for imported wine. China's been up and down, but there's always going to be potential in China. I have some direct work with the Nordic markets and Benelux and Republic of Ireland. They're really good markets. I'm doing some work with Japan and Canada at the moment, which are interesting. I wouldn't single out any market really for being bigger or better or worse, but there, I think as a brand owner, you have to be aware of every single market in the world. And back to the original question, yeah, I think the the situation in the US will stabilize and work itself out in time and probably not have as much impact as people suspect.

00:29:12 Giovanni Binello: One of the other, buzzwords or the themes in the industry has been also those stats that you see sometimes where you see like Gen Z or young people are drinking way less wine. Sometimes you see some data which is a bit more reassuring. Sometimes it's a disaster. So it's not really clear what will happen. Do you, what do you think will happen on that market? Do you think it's still an important market for wine producers? Or is it a market that eventually will will stop and maybe we'll move towards more niche brands or low alcohol brands, for example? What do you think will happen on that side?

00:29:47 Robin Copestick: I have a feeling that we over complicate the generational differences. As you said, you read some data somewhere saying that Gen Z aren't drinking. Then you read some data that Gen Z are drinking as much as the generations that came before them. I think trends are changing in the wine market and that's what we should concentrate on. And so whatever the age group, people still gather around a table to share food and conversations and stories and wine belongs in that moment for sure. It's social, it's food friendly, and it's civilized. So rather than chasing every micro trend, I think we should focus on wine's enduring role and connecting people in social situations, but also understanding that there are other products that are becoming more relevant, that also involve wine to, to a degree. And it's up to the industry and to brand owners to keep pace with those innovations. But yeah, I think we probably overcomplicate the generational difference in my opinion.

00:30:55 Giovanni Binello: Do you think low or no alcohol wine would have a similar growth to no-alcohol beer, or do you think it's a different market?

00:31:03 Robin Copestick: I think it's a different market, but I think it will be significant and what I'm seeing from our own company, so Henkell are making some extraordinary good 0% wines at the moment and some very good mid strength wines, I see from some other producers some really good quality coming out as well, and I think this will be the key to low and no, I think certainly from a UK perspective, I think that people sort of misunderstood the intention of the consumer. And for me, most of the consumers who are drinking low or no, they're making an informed choice, probably for health or a short term situation like driving or pregnancy. But it's not about money. It's about I want a really good product that either doesn't have as much alcohol as the normal drink that I have or has zero alcohol. And this is not about money. I want something that looks great. I want something that tastes great. I want something that makes me feel good. And I think at the beginning of the journey of this 0% and low and no, retailers and producers concentrated too much on having a low price product rather than actually satisfying the consumer's desire to have something that was good. And I think we see that in beer and we see that in spirits where the price is pretty much the same as the alcoholic version of that product. And they're making some really good products, and wine will catch up to that pretty quickly. And I hope the retailers will come on that journey with us, so that we can actually make some really good quality products that are sustainable from a financial perspective and that also excite the customers to drink more 0% and more lower alcohol product, wine products.

00:33:05 Giovanni Binello: I was thinking about beer and if we see no-alcohol, beer, there's a lot of big brands, I'm thinking of Leffe, or, Heineken, which basically kept the same branding, so it's the same bottle with maybe just 0% written on it. But in wine on the other side, the brands I know, I see it's completely different brands similar to the approach you followed with high iHeart, so very flashy labels, et cetera. Do you think that the trend will stay the same or we will see a traditional brand doing a 0% wine just keeping the same label and packaging?

00:33:42 Robin Copestick: Yeah. I think it's already happening and we will do that as a company. I think it, it'll be merchandised in a different space to avoid confusion. The bottles will clearly say 0%, so that, you know, it can't be confused. But I think it's, I think a brand is all about trust. So if you have a successful brand and you can make a really good 0% product with that brand, then why wouldn't you? Why wouldn't you use that? And the customers of that product will be excited to try, I'm sure.

00:34:13 Giovanni Binello: Let's move a bit to sustainability. So you mentioned you joined Packamama recently. So first of all, maybe if you can tell us in a couple of sentences what is Packamama. And then I would like to explore a bit more the concept of sustainable packaging, because I see it's a very big trend. I know a couple of producers that use paper bottles, aluminum bottles. So where do you think the market is going and we will see these kind of and packaging replace completely glass eventually at some point?

00:34:48 Robin Copestick: Well Packamama is a, it's a packaging company that specializes in recycled PET at the moment their bottles are also flat, so they're, they're not only much more efficient to blow the mold than to blow glass, but they're also incredibly more sustainable in terms of moving the product around the country or around the world. So you, you save at the point of execution, you also save energy when you are transporting the product. Great for shoppers, unbreakable, they're obviously made for everyday wines, for wines that you're gonna drink within two or three years of purchase, which is what most mainstream brands are anyway. And there's some really good innovations coming. So at the moment, the company is working on different designs that will really excite customers. So at the moment, Packamama is a small company, but it's growing, and they're gaining more listings, more recognition as every day goes by. Sustainable packaging, whether it's Packamama, or the other versions that you stated is definitely something for the future. We need lower emissions, we need lighter weight. It's a bit ridiculous to be transporting glass all over the world when you don't need to. Coca-Cola doesn't do it. And they are the biggest drinks company in the world I think, so why would wine do it? Personally, I obviously think that Packamama's options and the way they're doing business is better than the other alternatives that you, me mentioned for a variety of reasons, one of them that is that it's totally recyclable material they're using and it's a hundred percent recyclable afterwards as well, whereas some of those products have aspects in them that can't be re recycled. And the science in terms of the quality has improved a lot. So the preservation of the wine quality has improved a lot and is improving. So exciting times for them.

00:36:54 Giovanni Binello: From a consumer perspective, so I, I can see this kind of packaging being quite attractive, for example, in supermarkets for mass consumers because it's something that is new. People might be curious, then also labels usually are a bit different, so they might be a bit more attractive. Do you think we would ever see, I don't know, a 2000 euros or pounds bottles sold in a restaurant? For example, a flat bottle or a paper bottle? The question being do you think consumers will still perceive the quality of the product? We also with a different packaging, because I'm thinking for example of the twist, um, those bottles that don't have the traditional cork, they have the twist opening and usually those bottles are perceived the less quality bottles. But that's not, not necessarily true. Do you think there will be a similar challenge in the quality perception with different packaging compared to the traditional bottle?

00:37:48 Robin Copestick: It's a very good point and I do see a lot of similarities to what happened with Stelvin in the nineties and it was Tesco who really pushed as one of the retailers, they really pushed the UK into Stelvin. And at the time, amazingly, the entrees said that they would never have Stelvin bottles on their wine list because their customers wanted cork. And now if you go to most restaurants, they'll refuse to have anything that's not Stelvin. So, I mean, there's been a complete turnaround, and Stelvin is completely normal and there is no, and certainly in the UK and if you think about Australia and New Zealand, there is no real quality perception about whether a wine has got a Stelvin or a cork. And there are some very good quality high priced wines in Stelvin. So. Maybe not the 2000 bottle level, but why not have some really good quality wines going into a Packamama style bottle? Probably a bottle made for them. Probably a bottle that is bespoke to that brand, but I can definitely see that happening in the future and I don't think that future is too far away, to be honest with you.

00:39:04 Giovanni Binello: Okay, so now I think we can move to, a bit of a quick fire. So I will ask you three questions, which I would like you to answer in one, two, or a few sentences. So you inherit a winery, let's say a very traditional winery, which which has been on the market since the 1800s. So very traditional brand. You inherit it, which are the first three things you do?

00:39:28 Robin Copestick: Well, the first thing I'd do would be to meet the team, both individually and as a group. I'd want to understand what they think about the company and think about the brand. Obviously financials are very important, so second, I'd review all the financials, make sure we know exactly where we stand and where we need to go as a business and where to improve. And then I'd want to meet all the, all of the top customers of the brand and of the winery, and understand what they value. And more importantly, what they'd like to be improved. Because I think if you can bring people on the journey with you, then they would believe in your new ownership of that winery.

00:40:10 Giovanni Binello: I say a sentence and I would like you to complete it. So the wine industry would work much better if it stopped...

00:40:20 Robin Copestick: Naval gazing.

00:40:23 Giovanni Binello: Okay.

00:40:24 Robin Copestick: And what do I mean by that? I think the wine industry is too worried about its own competition and it's too worried about things like quality and terroir, and not that they're unimportant, but to most customers, as I said at the beginning, wine is very confusing and, let's excite our customers a bit more and let's be more fun. Even if we're making the best product in the world, let's have fun and let's excite people and let's not confuse them with things that are not important to them.

00:40:58 Giovanni Binello: So a more personal one, in the beginning of your career, which, who or which, were the most important influences and that led you to be, to be where you are at the moment?

00:41:10 Robin Copestick: Well, there are three. In every aspect of my life. So I've really, I've had three main jobs. So my first job was with Moreno Wines and Juan Moreno Senior, who was the founder of Morena Wines, undoubtedly was the person I have to thank for being in the industry. Very passionate, really believed in his product. Refused to fail, absolutely determined to succeed. And he was very, very inspirational. Then I moved to McGuigan, which is now called Australian Vintage. And the CEO there was Brian McGuigan, Australian guy, very similar qualities to Juan Moreno. So passionate, unbelievably hardworking. And then, after I started Copestick Murray, and when we sold, 60% of the business to Henkell, I came across Andreas Brokemper, who is still the CEO now of Henkell Freixenet, a much bigger company than than when I joined and when we sold Copestick Murray, and he too has all of those qualities and again, amazing work ethic, passionate, inspiring, strategic, intelligent. But what all three of them have is this from a personal perspective, is they all have this EQ of knowing how to get the best out of me and to understand my strengths and to allow me to concentrate on those strengths and also the trust to go and deliver what I had to deliver. And if you think back to when I was 19 and when Juan Moreno promoted me, I was only in my twenties and he gave me a car. I became their first salesman, an expense account. Nobody had been selling his wine to these shops and restaurants before, and he just trusted that I could go out and do it. And I did it. But he gave me the support and the inspiration to do it. And in their own ways, Brian and Andreas have done the same and then, just as a watch out for the industry, Santiago Navarro, who is CEO of Packamama, is showing a lot of those qualities. I can see a lot of those three people in Santiago. So watch this space for Santiago. I think he'll be a powerful force in the industry.

00:43:43 Giovanni Binello: Last one, and you can't answer one of your brands, which is your favorite wine.

00:43:51 Robin Copestick: Dom Perignon

00:43:52 Giovanni Binello: Ah, nice. Specific vintage?

00:43:55 Robin Copestick: I just think it's a great brand, so not necessary, the best quality champagne. But I do love branding as has probably come across in the interview. And there's just something iconic about the name, about the look of the brand. And it's got a feel good factor when, when, when you drink it. And, uh, I don't drink enough of it.

00:44:17 Giovanni Binello: I think none of us does. Robin, it was a pleasure having you. Thank you for super great conversation.