Branding delle cantine, il futuro delle agenzie e cio che le cantine sbagliano con le nuove generazioni con Christophe Kaczmarek

00:00:00 Christophe Kaczmarek: Honestly, if you are in the wine end for the money. I think you, you, you don't know what you're talking about. 'cause there are so many other, other ways to make money. Wine, you don't make money.

00:00:10 The label goes so strong on the shelf with all those traditional chateau and, and, and classical labels, or a little bit colorful labels, people will go and will buy the bottle and say, okay, I buy it because I like the label.

00:00:23 Wine stores, wine and spirit shops, wine importers, wine agents, wine wholesalers. They are, for me, still stuck in the tradition and tradition is not even the right word because tradition evolves. So I think they're just stuck in the past because the world is going too fast for them.

00:00:42 Giovanni Binello: This is Dolia Talks with me, Giovanni Binello. Now Dolia Talks is the show we discuss with the best sales and marketing professionals in the world of wine, spirits, and in general beverages. Our guest today is Christophe Kaczmarek. Christophe is the founder of Caaaaaat, a very opinionated, very political, very bold, natural wine brand, but he also the founder of Coq au Vin, which is a very important agency in France. So Christophe knows a thing or too about brand building, brand positioning. Intermediation, distribution in general, how to sell wine. This was a super great conversation. I think we got a huge amount of insights from it. If you have any feedback or suggestions or ideas about guests to invite to the show, you can reach out at [email protected]

00:01:27 Hey Chris, so welcome. I'm super excited for this and I want to start really from a small introduction from your side. So maybe just you can tell us how you got into this magnificent world of wine and yeah, basically your origin story just to know you a bit better.

00:01:41 Christophe Kaczmarek: Hi Giovanni, thanks for welcoming me on your podcast. Very happy to be there. So the beginning of this, very simple. I was a student. So first my origin, I come from, I don't come from a wine family. I have Polish roots. We come from a poor family. There is no wine involved, there's party and drunkness involved, but no, no wine. So I grew up in the middle of France, in Auvergne and when I was 18 years old, I had my bachelor and I went to Paris straight away. Did a business school. Didn't really know what to do of my life, a friend of mine at the school knew that I was looking for a side job, so he put me at Le Repair du Bacchus in Paris. It's a chain of wine stores and really that's how it all started in 2005 first, and then 2007 really I was involved and I started to learn wine.

00:02:32 When I arrived there, I was 23 years old. I didn't know anything about wine. I didn't even know what Cabernet Sauvignon was. And I just really started from the bottom and learned step by step, I fell in love with wine at that time. I arrived in this wine shop, I saw so many wines, you know, how wine shops looked like in France, in Italy, Spain, thousands of wines, and I was kind of lost but fascinated at the same time. And I just discovered a world of history, of stories, of diversity of tastes, of landscapes. For me, it was really amazing and I saw an infinite world and I saw something I will never get bored of. And I just decided, okay, I want this to be my life very simply.

00:03:19 Giovanni Binello: And how, how did you go from there to launching your own brand? So how did you come to this decision?

00:03:24 Christophe Kaczmarek: Well, that's a long path. So I started in Le Repair du Bacchus, but I was just, it was a student job. I was still doing my studies and very early I wanted to have my own company. So in 2007, I started my own business. I was 23, very young, a friend of mine and, an older guy we were coupling wine with show business, making some tasting at the end of shows, of living shows, theater shows, um, didn't work. I went away, I worked at Le Repair du Bacchus full-time, at that time I stayed two years, then I moved to Domaine Paul Mas, in the south of France in international job. At that time I was 27. I took a job as an area manager for Americas - Canada, the States, Mexico, South America, and a bit of Europe. Didn't stay long, I already didn't feel the company was for me. I'm a very free person and as my former bosses said, I'm hard to manage. So that's the game. And I answer to another company called Castel, biggest French producer in the world. So really huge company, in which I had a lot of freedom. And I was still 27 because it was the end of 2011, and there I really thrived. I was export director for a part of Europe and Middle East. I really enjoyed my job. Castel was a good path for me to develop. And then, I met a woman at the company... Because I was happy at Castel, I did four years, I could have done more. And I've met a woman and she wanted to go far away and she was in the company with me and she said, okay, you follow me or not, but I'm going away. So I just say, okay, I quit. I go with you. And that's how I started the company actually. We went to New Zealand and we arrived in New Zealand without money really. So we needed a job and needed a job during the day. During night, I was working on Coq au Vin. It was actually the contrary. At night, I was at the bar, and during the day I was working on my company. And that's really how it started. I was doing what I know, which was export. and it's a job I really wanted to do my way. So entrepreneurship was just a path to do it. And now it's been 10 years. I run the agency, export agency and that's how it started actually with Coq au Vin, the agency.

00:05:50 Giovanni Binello: so you started, you said you were around 20/23. Which advice would you give to a person the same age starting now in this world of wine?

00:05:59 Christophe Kaczmarek: It's different world, to be honest. It's much more complicated. Now you feel guilty because you travel because of the carbon emissions. It was not the case 15 years ago. I mean, nobody was talking about that. Climate change was already a thing, but it was not public. Nobody was really concerned about that. So that's the first point, the guiltiness I think you have to get rid of because, for example, in my job what I do is to sell wines and I try to sell mostly ecological wines. So I'm not a producer of planes, I'm not a producer of fuel. So what I did is I reduced my trips a lot, at some point you have to see the customers. So I used to travel like four times a year. Now I do it once every two years, so it's a big reduction, and it also has an impact on business because if you're not on the ground, not on the field, your communication, your marketing can be the best in the world, they are still a support to sales, and that's the thing I think we forget a lot. My best advice would be just, just go on and never give up. It's no magic idea, my idea is not magic. I'm selling wine, like it's a thing we do for 8,000 years. And you know, we are very influenced by all these entrepreneurs from the tech, from other sectors that I have this magic idea, Facebook, whatever, and then I became, I became a billionaire. It's not how it works really. More complicated than that or, or simpler than that. It's just you wanna do something if you really have the guts and the will just do it and it'll happen. To be honest, it's really the way it worked for me. I didn't have like a magical solution. Uh, solving people people's problems, like I see a lot on LinkedIn. Like, you have to have a product that solves problems. So that's, you know, so my advice is just if you really want to do something, just, just do it. And never give up. Never give up. You will have failures, you will fail. You will fail. You will fail until one day you will succeed. But it's just, if you keep going, that's the key thing. And then obviously I don't recommend you to start when you are 23. You start in companies, you see different things, maybe branches, different companies, different sizes, and then when you have a little bit of background, I started when I was 31, really Coq au Vin is a success now after 10 years, I had a little bit of background company, companies that failed, like the first one I created. But I created another company in 2009, Gentle Wine. It didn't fail. It just, it wasn't, the business model wasn't good to sustain a life. I tried a few things. I created a blog in 2010 too called verreduvin.com, It was a very French blog. It was a glass of wine, destroying it. I already wanted to disrupt things, but it was too early. People were not really into it. I tried a lot of things and at some point, you know, you go on, you have a business plan, the business plan never works the way it's written, but that's normal. That's life, because you can't plan what's happening. So you just have to adapt. So my advice will just be don't wait for the magical idea, never give up and just do it.

00:09:12 Giovanni Binello: Do you think, because you mentioned when you first started, you didn't know even know what a Cabernet was. So do you think it's still feasible to start with little to no knowledge about wine and the industry in general?

00:09:24 Christophe Kaczmarek: I think it's not hard to start, I mean, you can start anything, it's just a question of will, real will. So I didn't know anything about wine, I had mentors in my life. Mentors because also I choose to have mentors. So one of my mentors was the number two of Le Repair du Bacchus, who became a friend, Paolo Buccanova from Le Repair du Bacchus, he's still running the thing, he's the director of operation now you can say in French, like he's number two operational direction of the company. So when I arrived in the company, he told me, take those two books. It was the big dictionary, and the second one, I don't even remember the second book what it was, but he said just, go in it, study it for two weeks and come back to me and then we see if you are up for the job. And I came back with the books and I told him, no, you know, two weeks was not enough, too much information. So I'm not up for the job, I'm sorry for that. And he said, he laughed and he said, okay, I wanted to see what you, if you had the guts, if you studied that for two weeks you already have some good base. But of course you can't learn everything. You can't learn the world of wine in two weeks. you hired, it's basically, it's really how it happened. yeah, that's why I think it's, it can be scary, all this knowledge, just go step by step. For me, I knew I didn't know anything and that's it. You know, you can't know everything, especially when you are in your twenties. I mean, come on, you're just starting your work life and so it's just the very beginning. So when I hear some 25 years people who tell me, oh, Chris, I'm changing my branch, I'm doing a reconversion, I think I've seen everything from my branch. I'm like, come on man, you you didn't even start. Come on. It's just the beginning 25. You can change. Obviously it's your choice. But don't tell me that you already know everything about your branch, especially in the wine game where it's infinite and still, I think I will never know nothing, even when I'm dead. I think it's just a reality of, okay, I won't know everything and, I'm just motivated. Let's do it again. That's my motto.

00:11:38 Giovanni Binello: Let's go to Caaaaaaat. So, you mentioned you launched an agency then you launched this incredible natural wine brand. So walk us through it.

00:11:48 Christophe Kaczmarek: So I created my agency. I'm still developing it. That's 95% of my turnover, so that's really the main part. But with COVID it became more business focused. I'm really answering to what the market wants. I'm not fighting anymore with the agency like I used to fight for very ecological product, biodynamic super niche wines, because it almost destroyed me during COVID. So I decided to come back and say, okay, you don't want... You're not ready for this. So I will still push that, but I need some fuel to push it. So what is that? The market wants, okay, you want this, you want that, you want that. Okay, I'll do it. So now with the agency, I sell around 600,000 bottles a year, and I'm about to double this number next year in 26. With Caaaaaaat, it's a completely different game. It's my lab, it's my love, it's my creativity. Everything is in it, and there is no concessions. I don't care. People like or don't like cats, the pink, the color, it's political. It's artistic, it's kind of a way to separate things. The agency Coq au Vin - pure business. There is love in it, of course, because I love wine, I love most of my customers. We have amazing relationship. And Caaaaaaat is a really different thing. I wanted to express my crazy part, my artistic part. And so I created really the first cuvée. The first vintage was 2019. It was thanks to a friend, which is well known in the natural wine world. He's a really top wine producer, top wine producer. And he just saw, that very geeky about wine, nerdy, crazy, passionate about it. And he just said, don't wait for to, to have your vineyard. Just take some grapes from, from me and let's make wine together. And I was not feeling very comfortable the first time because it was in 2018 and we didn't do it. But in 19, my girlfriend said, come on, you love his wine. He's a legend for you. You have been dreaming about that your entire life. Come on. So it's exactly the advice that I'm giving now to the youth I gave to myself. Just do it. So I did it I created my first one, which was Atomic Wine. Atomic Caaaaaaat, sorry. Atomic Caaaaaaat. And it's an atomic wine actually. And it was a claret because I really wanted to come back to this kind of rose, deep rose very light reds that you can put in your fridge and you can tweak it at any time of the year and of the day. So that's really something I wanted. There, you know, it's been 20 years, I mean, in this game, so I know a lot of people, a lot of people know me. When wine growers friends knew that I was doing that with Fabian, they called me - Chris, do, do you wanna do a cuvée with me? Or I love cats. Let's put a cat in space with you. And I was like, I just had one label I didn't know it'll become a brand. And so I started really like that. I went with the flow. Friends called me and I basically said yes to everybody.

00:15:03 Giovanni Binello: I'm super curious about the brand. So how, how did you come up? First of all, it's seven As, right?

00:15:08 Christophe Kaczmarek: Yes, yes,

00:15:09 Giovanni Binello: How did you come up with it?

00:15:10 Christophe Kaczmarek: So, to be honest, I never told the story really to, to nobody, to no one. Because first, my first cuvée was Atomic Caaaaaaat, I wanted to put only one A and I like to do things right. So I went to my lawyers, I have lawyers from the beginning of my company, and I say, oh, okay, I have this brand. I want to, to secure it, so let's do it. So they say, okay, Cat is a generic term, so you have to be careful because some people can attack you. And I say, okay, who, for example? Caterpillar. Caterpillar. And they said, they attack everybody who uses Cat. And I'm like, but they, they're not taking wine, I mean, the wine game, they're just in the construction, in closes. And they say, no, they don't care. She recommended me I don't take the risk. I came back to her and I said, what if I put seven As? She laughed and she said, okay, genius. And I'm like, really? I won't be bothered. She said, no, that's for sure. You can go with seven As, like the seven lives of the cat in some culture, you know, France it's nine lives. But I say I put seven lives because seven As is already a lot to put on the label, to put in Instagram to put on the website. I just, people say, oh wow, it's the cats and everything, it's a marketing trick. And I said, no, it's not, because nobody can put, never put the right amount of As. So it's shit, not good marketing, it's just my craziness and my artistry.

00:16:41 Giovanni Binello: So you chose, as you said, a brand that is pretty much artistic, political, a bit different from other wineries of course. Do you see that appeals to a general public or this is more maybe targeted to younger people? So how's your approach on that side, on the target market?

00:16:58 Christophe Kaczmarek: So with Caaaaaaat, really, I went with the flow. I created something I really wanted myself. I studied for six years now. So what I see is that they are young Gen Z and millennials less than 40 years old, and even less than 35, really the core market. I didn't really target them, they just came to me. My universe is very colorful. I'm breaking the codes of wine. Then the pink also, for me, it's political. I love pink. Today it's, you know, associated to weakness, and to women. And the fact that you associate women to weakness that, I mean, it's wrong. I'm not a politician, but I'm an entrepreneur and I can put some messages and I can try to create a noise of free spirit in this world that is getting shrinked. I think shrinked and shrinked and more conservatism is just rising everywhere, nationalism, that kind of stuff. For me, it's very scary and I don't want a grey world. I want a colorful world. And pink, It's also in France, la vie en rose, so you look at life and life is beautiful. So today, what I see, yeah, the main market, the main people who really like Caaaaaaat, are people under 35 and also a lot of women. And those two things, it's super niche in the wine game. It's super niche for a few reasons. And one of them is people under 30, under 35 and 30, don't run the businesses yet. people who run the business are the archetypes of the white male of 55 years old now. When they look at this pink, my labels, they're like, come on yeah, okay man, you know, they don't take me seriously I think they take themselves a little bit too seriously. I know a lot of them, you know, I work with a lot of them in my agency, so it's okay. And I have fine people and great people in it, but I'm talking about the archetype, the boomer mindset. Boomer is not only a generational thing. You can have a boomer mindset when you are 25. It's what is blocking me to develop the brand a little bit more, develop the sales of the brand a little bit more. It's really because people who are buying are not ready yet. And the exact same people are telling you, oh, young people are not drinking wine anymore, they're drinking other stuff. Beer, hard seltzer in the US, whatever. No, they don't drink what you have on your shelves, they drink my wines. So when I go to the fairs, I do a lot of fairs now, honestly, every time I'm on the fair, you can see the crowd around me and just look at the crowd, and you'll see who is there. Young people, a lot of young people, they smile, open-minded, but they don't run the businesses yet. But maybe I'm a little bit in advance. I'm okay with that. When they are ready to buy, I'm already here.

00:20:03 Giovanni Binello: Are traditional wine brands, maybe underestimating the behavior, let's say, of younger people?

00:20:10 Christophe Kaczmarek: I'm sure of it. I'm sure of it. And I think the problem mainly is not from the producers, mainly from distributors. They locked the market. And independent wine shops, we have a lot of them, but they don't have the strength, you know, to, to really build a niche brand. Wine stores, wine and spirit shops, wine importers all around the world, wine agents, wine wholesalers. It's been six years prospecting, talking to them. So I see that, they are, for me, still stuck in the tradition and tradition is not even the right word because tradition evolves. So I think they're just stuck in the past because the world is going too fast for them. And it's really the same with craft beer. A lot of distributors and wine shops, they missed the train they just now "Okay, oh, now I'm building a range of craft beers". Man, that's a move you had to do 20 years back. And today you will do it and you will say, oh, look, it doesn't work. I was right. No, you were wrong. If 20 years ago you will have done it then yes. Of course it doesn't work because everybody has done it. So you're just replicating something too late. The market is going down for everybody, for the wine, for beers, for spirits. So I think that's really a major point. It's about distribution. And to be honest, I don't work with supermarkets and retailers yet. They are more open, to be honest, they're much more open because they don't have only wine. They have so many products. They see what can work. So, and again, it's not the wine world. It's wine worlds. So there are some niche, some places where it's moving differently. I see it because I have importers at the end of the day in Quebec, in Denmark, in Poland, in Ibiza even. you know, I see who it's, who is moving, but I think it's really slow and there is a little bit of lack of curiosity. I think a lot of people just lost curiosity. Look what's happening, try things, do things. But I think also it's the beauty of wine and it's proper to wine that we are really into the tradition. But, generally with my wines, you don't have to do nothing. You put them on the shelf, the label goes so strong on the shelf with all those traditional chateâus and classical labels, or a little bit colorful labels, but not that crazy like mine, people will go and will buy the bottle and say, okay, I buy it because I like the label. I don't really care about the wine. Might be shit, but I just buy it. Then in drinking, they drink it and they come back and they say, well, it was actually good wine, very good wine, so let's just buy another bottle. And I create the rotation.

00:22:50 Giovanni Binello: So you're saying basically labels can become... Actually play an important role in customer decision. So even when you don't know a brand, the label drives actually purchase.

00:23:03 Christophe Kaczmarek: So, I read a lot of studies. It's not just me coming up with things. I read a lot of studies from different countries. I try not to be too influenced, by all these influencers and people talking on LinkedIn, for example, because it's US-centric and USA is not the world. They have the hard seltzer that works very well. It never worked in France for example or in Europe, didn't really work. So they have their specificities, we have our specificity. So some markets still react very strongly to grape varietals - Australia, where I work a lot, a study from last year, says 85% of the choices are made for grape varietal. So it's huge. It's the same in many markets. Even now in France, I don't have the figures, but the grape varietals became really strong. I've read another study, that said that Gen Z, we have to know that Gen Z it's people between 13 years old and 25. Most of Gen Z is not even in capacity to buy wine yet because or they're under age or they don't have the money. Because today at 23, you don't have... I didn't have even the money at 23 to buy wine, to be honest. So I was just buying one bottle sometime, it was just a luxury product. We have to be careful also when we talk about the fact that Gen Z is not drinking wine. They don't have the money, or they don't have the age to drink wine. So just go slow step by step. And you know, in five years, 10 years, they will be there and they will be there strongly. So I've read this study about Gen Z saying that don't care about the grape varietals anymore that much because it's a thing of the older generation and you know that you don't want to do the same thing than the older generation. So they're looking differently at the labels. My label, I don't have the grape varietal in front of it because it's good for business. It is good to be positioned right on the shelf. But I'm in a niche market. I want to stay niche and artistic. Maximum produce capacity is 50,000 bottles, so I don't want to be E.G. Gallo. I don't want to be Castel, I don't want to be those big brands selling millions of bottles. I can't do it. I can't keep this quality with this. So I'm not interested in that, to be honest. No way. So also that's why I allow myself to do more crazy things and to have Caaaaaaat as a lab. So coming back to the labels, I think label is super important and really all studies show that. Label is actually the first thing that hits you. Not necessarily the first criteria of choice because then you look at the price, and price then plays a big part. What attracts you on the shelf is not price, it's the label. It's catching. So that's a real thing. And I could be a bit softer in my labels to be more in the market, but again, really want to push forward and to see how far can I go without really being like, I think I'm on the edge of the market.

00:26:06 Giovanni Binello: Don't you think that poses, I mean, because while you were speaking I was thinking if I was to start a wine brand, I mean, it goes against a lot of different lo traditional logics of branding, you know, because in the end, what we're saying is

00:26:20 Christophe Kaczmarek: Yeah,

00:26:20 Giovanni Binello: the first impression actually plays a very big role. How you present yourself on social media, how you design your label. So how do we connect this more visual and first appearance to all the traditional branding stuff? So the story we tell, the company, the brand in general. So how does that connect and in which phase does that become important after the first impression?

00:26:42 Christophe Kaczmarek: I think it depends what you want to do. In which frame of time and who do you target. So I take an example - if I want now to launch a wine brand and I want it to be successful quickly, I will not break the codes like a crazy man. I will look at what is on the shelves of my market because all markets have really different way of doing things. Like if you go to Australia, you have a lot of colorful things like I do, already kind of has been in Australia because everybody kind of did crazy stuff already for a long time. So it's not a thing anymore. They look for tradition. Where in Europe it's the contrary. We are so much in tradition that we look for stuff like that. So, and I think US is kind of the middle because they're really attracted by this. if I had to launch a wine brand today, I think I will do something serious, artistic, a little bit colorful, but not too much. The grape varietal in front of it, boom, and the vintage in front of it. Something very, very clear and legible on the shelf. It's very contrary what I do here, but me, I'm not on the same frame time, I'm enjoying myself, again, I see it more art than business completely. And I can show you the figures and the, I, I'm spending more money on it right now than I'm earning it, but I'm betting also on the long term, on the long run.

00:28:10 So today, if you want to stand out, I think you just have to put a little bit of twist. Again, it's artistry. It's the tradition, it's history, it's wine, it's poetry, it's beautiful. It's romantic a lot. I think the real romantic from the 19th century.But we are in the market and you have to make a living. And the competition is extreme in wine. And that's something we don't talk enough. I think the competition is extreme. So when you create a brand, you look at everything, how you produce wine, the very end of it, the label. But there are thousands ways of doing it, honestly. And if you don't know how to do it or just you, you scale. Take a communication agency, find a marketing communication agency, and do some focus groups. Do some study really like, do like the big companies. Honestly, that's what people want. What, what do they want? And, then make some tests on the market test, test, test.

00:29:04 Because sometimes they will tell you, I want this. You'll create this, you'll put it on the market, doesn't work. Okay, some twist, change some things and test, test, test. And at some point you will test the markets and you'll find the right spots. Exactly what I do with the agency. That's why with the agency, again, I sell 600,000 bottles a year whereas with Caaaaaaat, my production today is 15,000 bottles, it's super small. A lot of people see me on the networks. I'm really pushing natural wines, really screaming for my brand, people are telling me, Chris, uh, wow, you're not an agent anymore. I am an agent, but as an agent, I'm in the shadows. I'm not the star. The stars are the wineries, the cup, the negociants, the importers, the sommelier, the restaurants, the wine shops. There are a lot of stars to put in the light. Me, I'm just here to make things work and I'm not here to be in the light. If you're an agent and you want to be a star, you are making your job wrong. You are here for other people to be the stars. But when I'm a winemaker, I'm a baby winemaker as I call myself, then it's a different game. I have to show my work and I have to show who is behind the craft. That's very important today to put a face on the, I'm not a faceless brand. I exist.

00:30:15 Giovanni Binello: Where do you think we are heading with the distribution? Do you think there will be a lot more disintermediation? Do you think distributions and agencies will stay relevant? Do you think social media will play a big role? So where do you see the market heading in terms of distribution?

00:30:28 Christophe Kaczmarek: I think that's an interesting question. And we discussed really quickly about that. So coming back to the agency side and the distribution side, pure business. About the intermediaries, again, I've read a lot of things around there saying, intermediation is dead, go direct, don't use intermediation. I think it's right in a certain way for the US market. Again, you know, US is a big market. It's the strongest country in terms of economy today. They have a big influence in the world, and so we listen to them too much. Regarding wine, for example, when they say you have to kill intermediation, yeah, because you have a system you inherited from prohibition. They created the three-tier system where there are layers of people who don't even understand what they do - Importers, distributors, retailers - and it's mixed. Now it's mess, it's a mess. We don't have this here. In most markets you don't have that. So if you take my job, I think I know well, I'm an intermediary, I'm an agency with Coq au Vin, but it's been 10 years. And in 10 years time, what I saw is if you bring value to your customers, the one who pays the bills, the wine growers, and to people, you have to consider as your customers too. Even if they don't pay you directly, they buy wine from you. The importers, I'm talking about export and it works the same for domestic market when you have agents and if you bring value to you are not just there to get the orders and to organize to be basically, basically an email box, but you really bring value to both, you don't have to worry about existing or not. Because as long as you bring value, you are an intermediary or retailer or whatever you are, it works. If you don't bring value, even if you're not an intermediary, but a retailer, an importer, a wine shop, restaurant or somebody, whatever, won't work. So for me, it's not about the question of where do you sit in the chain of value, but what value do you bring on the table? For me, that's the key. And I think agents like me are extremely useful, especially, I mean, on both sides. For wine growers, most of them, they want to focus on their craft. That's the first point. Some of them, they don't even speak. So that's the second point. The third point is, they want to understand a market and to have the expertise, so they will make some sales because they like it, but they can't be everywhere. And there is another situation where it's a big company, they have a lot of people and they have already enough salespeople so they can cover the world. But to be honest, I'm not even sure I know one company like that in France. Even the big ones I work with, some big companies, they have export directors, they have sales, but you can't be an expert in everything. It doesn't exist. To be an expert on a market, you really have to hit the ground to be there to know the people and to create a link on the long run. And those big companies, when they have sales, those sales, they move from the company to another. It's been 10 years I'm here and I'm here for the next 10 years. So when you build with me, you've been in the long run. And I think that's how you have to position yourself as an intermediary agent or whatever your role is. But again, I really think the key is value. So to answer your question completely, I do see some changes in distribution, but it's really in each market it's different. In France, for example, the agents now are becoming also wholesalers, which you can say, well, it doesn't sound like I see in other parts because in the US for example it'll be kind of the contrary. It's really proper to every market. What I see also, but it's not only a question of distribution, but it comes in distribution too, it's in all economical crises, the big ones, they thrive, the very niche wine, they can survive. In the middle, they get stuck in between. But that's a classical, economical thing. Not only wine. And I think in the middle you have to be careful right now, or you become smaller and you really become close to a niche or you buy some other of competitors to become big, because you will be swallowed by the big ones or just destroyed the market because today the middle segment is really suffering.

00:34:52 Giovanni Binello: Okay. And why, why do you think it suffers? Because people tend to purchase more traditional brands? So what do you think is the main reason there?

00:35:00 Christophe Kaczmarek: It suffers because of the economic crisis. So you have less money, you still want to buy the same amount of wine, you don't really just change that much your consumption. It's already, I mean, the consumption generally is reducing, but you as a consumer personally, if you have your habits, you won't change it from one day to another. So if you used to buy a wine, let's say once a week, for 10 euros, then you revenue is shrinking, now you're looking for wine for 7 euros. And then this segment is just, you know, suffering. The biggest segment, I also sell a lot of fine wines, like the very top wines - some wines that cost, uh, 10,000 euros a bottle - you see it's going a little bit down, but it's still there because people who have money, they still have money. The day I don't sell any fine wines anymore, like I know we are in big trouble, like in big, huge economical crisis. Like I'm, I'll be scared, but for now, people will tell you, oh fine, wines, we are not selling it anymore. No, come on. You know, we are drama kings and queens in this world. There are cycles. We are in a difficult cycle. is shrinking. The possibility for people to buy is shrinking too. So the middle segment where you're kind of stuck in nowhere is suffering for sure. Unless you have a very strong brand and you hit the road and, and you will take market shares from your competitors, the cake is shrinking. So they will be losers for sure, but, you know, there is nothing we can do against that. We just have to fight to survive. So merge, or some people, maybe they better do something else than wine, just go in another branch because a lot of people in this game are not passionate too. They're just there for the money.

00:36:44 Giovanni Binello: In terms of the digital approach, do you think there's something that they can learn from natural wines and these niches to differentiate from competitors that are stuck in this middle market?

00:36:56 Christophe Kaczmarek: What I see is natural wines had a strong impact on the wine making all over the world. And for every company, every company at some point was even a bit scared and started to think: I have to make a wine without sulfites. That kind of stuff. Because a lot of time we reduce natural wine to the sulfite thing. No, natural wine is you have to be natural in the vineyard, don't use crazy chemicals to destroy the land. So first you have a very healthy agronomy. Then everything is made by hands. That's a very important point. You work your soils, depending which way, but it's a living soil. Sometimes you don't even have to work it, just leave some grass. And regarding how natural wines can influence, they already influenced a lot of the world because the movement started in the fifties. And how we can influence, I think we influence them also with the labels, because in natural wines, the labels were crazy from the beginning. People were really doing some crazy stuff, some, a lot of colors, some just drawing from your daughter, and it has a punk spirit in it. The good punk, like the... There's no bad punk actually. I like, I like punk a lot, but not the punk music. You know, the caricature of the punk that just rock and roll and screaming in a mic. No punk is just being very free. So yeah, no, I think we already impressed a lot of this game with... On the wine making side, on the labels. And then for the rest, we are in the super niche market. So, again, if you stick in the middle, I think you'll have to find other ways. It's not... If you decide to go natural now, straight away, it won't work because the niche market is still a niche market and it would just be an additional player the market that is already too small. I mean, there are a lot of producers in the natural wine game, we still are convincing the consumers also because in the natural wine world, you have of two sides, the clean side and the dirty. Even me, I'm criticized a lot. Caaaaaaat is criticized a lot by the conventional wines because I annoy them with my marketing, with my coolness, with all my crazy stuff. But the natural wine world, a lot of people don't like me in this game too, because my hands are not dirty. I'm not a wine grower, but sorry, I'm Polish. I don't have money. I came here, we don't have any heritage. So I don't have any grapes, anything. I have to build everything from zero. You know, it takes time. So wine world, it's a lot of shades and that's the magic of it also. I think you have to get inspired by everybody. Don't look only in one point. Look at everybody what they do and talk to people. That's what I do with the agency, I talk to everybody from conventional, from huge ones, small ones, bio organic, people stuck in nowhere because they use some dynamic practices, but they don't have the certification. They are kind of organic, but not completely, because when it's very difficult, they will use a little bit of chemicals on a specific pot, on a specific plant. But 95% of the vineyards will be organic. It's a very complex world and also why I think we're struggling a little bit with visibility, make things clear for the consumer. It's very tough. So what I do is make things crazy for the consumer. I don't know if it works, but that's my spot.

00:40:02 Giovanni Binello: If you were to split, let's say your two natures, so the agency and the brand, would you, I mean, would you sell Caaaaaaat through an agency or a similar brand, a similar natural wine brand through an agency, or do you think it's the type of brand that belongs to more direct to consumer channels?

00:40:22 Christophe Kaczmarek: I try to go directly to consumers. Right now, I built a website for that. I'm finalizing a few stuff to be ready in English and to be shipped in most of Europe. Next step is to be able to ship all over the world. I have a partner, a logistic partner that is already in the starting blocks ready for it. I'm working on hyper-personalization for the direct consumer also, so I implement stuff like Brevo. It's a lot of work to do that, but I think it's very important. So just to... I think it's a channel that we have to rediscover in wine. A lot of people, gave up on that. There are still a lot of people doing it, but a lot of people gave up on that because they consider that working with export, for example, you have cash straight away, but it's not the same margin. I sell, I'll tell you about Caaaaaaat because I'm very open with the margin and everything. When I sell to professionals, I make average of 1.5 euro brutto margin per bottle, which is nothing. My average price is 9 euros, and I make 1.5 euros on it.

00:41:26 So it's bad. I don't recommend people to be the same, but I just want my partners to be well paid. And I have the agency to sustain me. So I'm lucky. I mean, I'm not lucky, you know, I've built it. Like a lot of companies, you build something and then you build another project. So that's one thing. And to answer your question, I think we have to find a hybrid model. Of course, wine shops will continue to work, but everybody's struggling. So I think we have to find hybrid models where you sell maybe wine, the classical stuff, beer, spirit, kombucha, the new stuff, which are very interesting. By the way, I'm working on a kombucha. Ues, that's, I have already the name Kombucaaaaaat with, um, the lees of my wine, Buddhacat, which is a Chardonnay, and I want to do something. It'll be no alcohol, no sugar. So I hope to release it, in the next few months. But I'm open to yet to work on hybrid models where I think you have to create events. Uh, you have to have a bar, and the shop part, and maybe other products, I don't know, maybe you sell some piece of art, maybe... Not necessarily food to go, but food on place for sure, because it's a wine bar, wine event. But I think you have... You really have to create those hybrid models, because what I see is people want some experience, want new stuff, experience, and they want to live things. Events are super important. I'm working on some Caaaaaaat events. I'll make a first small event and then we'll grow. And I really want to try things with the events and I really believe in that. In the wine game we do it, but in a very traditional way.

00:43:04 I think you have to offer something else. It's very hard for the wine world to understand that because I think wine became, it's not the major thing in people's life. It's an accessory, it's a side thing. So you have to create an event where your wine will be a side thing, a side product. It's very difficult when you produce, because for you, it's not a side product. It's your entire life. Caaaaaaat, I make it, it's very important for me. It's my entire life, but I'm also in the business and I see what's happening and I have to have some, a little bit of humility. I must have humility and say, okay, it's the center of my life, but I'm not the main character why my wine or any wine will be the central part of some people's life. It'll be but very niche, 1%, maybe 2% maximum. The rest, it's a side thing. It's like bread, it's like cheese. And then you have to create things around it to sell it, I think. And I think it's healthy to be honest because it pushes us to create moments of sharing, reconnection also with people that with the digital world we are losing. I think it's very positive, we can do a lot of things with that, so I really believe in that.

00:44:19 Giovanni Binello: I completely agree. I think also that larger wineries have a lot of potential to uncover in these kind of initiatives. I've been to Champagne lately. What you see there is you have these roads full of these super large Maisons, et cetera. But then it's that I think one kilometer of road in Epernay. Outside of that, the city is completely dead. Why can't I have, I don't know, a Ruinart wine shop or something branded? I mean, there's a lot of potential there that is not tapped. I come from a town close to the Prosecco area. It's the largest town in the area, it's called Padova. There's no single Prosecco brand - and those are large companies - that has a branded bar, a branded wine shop in the city. Why didn't anyone have this idea before?

00:45:09 Christophe Kaczmarek: I agree. I agree. You take the city of Sancerre famous appellation in the valley in France, not too far from Paris. And you go in the city center, and you'll see some branded shops, like you have one that, comes in mind because they're friends of mine, very famous Sancerre producer, number one Sancerre, a biodynamic producer, beautiful cellar. And they have a wine shop, a branded wine shop. They sell only Alphonse Mellot wines in this shop. And won't disclose the figures. I have them, but I can tell you it's impressive. It works better than wine shops in France. I will tell you the truth. Most wine shops that sell thousands of different products, they will have a turnover that is less important

00:45:55 Giovanni Binello: yeah.

00:45:56 Christophe Kaczmarek: So, So you have concrete examples of that. I fully agree with you. Especially, especially Champagne, Prosecco. Come on. It's not,

00:46:03 Giovanni Binello: Yeah.

00:46:04 Christophe Kaczmarek: It's huge. Everybody knows them.

00:46:05 Giovanni Binello: And I don't think it's difficult at the end no? Because you just need a... You don't need, don't need crazy ideas. It's, yeah, a wine shop, maybe a bit of a different branding. It's an event, as you said, you sponsor an event, you can do tons of different things. So yeah, I agree.

00:46:22 Christophe Kaczmarek: You know, I know some wineries, they, they do some, very simple events. Brasero or barbecue, and wine. That's it. And, and you say, okay, no concept: music, you can... Sometimes there are some topic like electro music or we put some, music from the eighties, nostalgia, but sometimes not even that, just music, food, and wine, just, and you gather together and you are in the vineyards and you see, it's as simple as that, honestly.

00:46:47 Giovanni Binello: Agree. Good. So I would move into a bit of a quickfire. So I will ask you, a couple of questions and I would like you to answer these in one or two sentences, so very, very quick, answer question sentences.

00:46:59 Christophe Kaczmarek: Thanks for, for mentioning that. I can be long. Sorry for that.

00:47:03 Giovanni Binello: So first one, you in edit a winery. So imagine this will be a winery with a lot of history and you inherit it. Which are the first three things you do?

00:47:13 Christophe Kaczmarek: Wow. want me to answer that quickly? If I inherit the winery, I will do three things. I will... I mean, I will analyze first the production. I'll see the cost, you know, it looks simple, but in wine a lot of wine growers they don't know their cost. So look at the cost, the margin, what you do, build the range with entry level, middle range, high range. That's my first thing. Look at your customers. You have a customer base. I'm sure if you exist for a long time, you inherit something, you have a lot of direct consumers. Look at it, build a Brevo or whatever brand it is, just you know, a simple tool, and talk to them. Newsletters, it looks simple. Or that they are overwhelmed by newsletters, but it's not like that. You can even use paper the old way that people are not using that much. And the third thing on the vineyard, just check the vineyard. If it's not organic, I put it organic straight away.

00:48:07 Giovanni Binello: Second, where do you see in one sentence, wine sales heading in the next 10 years? We touched upon it, but just to sum it up.

00:48:15 Christophe Kaczmarek: I think direct sales, you really have to look at it. It doesn't mean that everybody can do it, doesn't mean that you have to do it, but you surely have to look at it and see if it's for you because the margins are much better when, you do, for example, cut 1.5 Euro with professional, you can do up to eight euro margin brutto with direct consumer, of course it's not the same investment.

00:48:38 It costs a little bit of money and so on. But once you... Those people are loyal, they come back and you can really build on that and they become your ambassador. So I think all other channels you have to look at it obviously, and I think everything will exist. Wine shops I think will shrink a little bit. Wine bars a little bit too. I think restaurants too.

00:48:55 Giovanni Binello: Okay, complete this sentence. The wine industry would work much better if it stopped.

00:49:00 Christophe Kaczmarek: Complaining about everything. Complaining about the fact that the youth doesn't drink, that the beers took, market shares, blah, blah, blah. Look at yourself. I think it's a big point in wine. We complain too much. We are estetes. We're not that good in business. We are not capitalistic. So I think we need to be a little bit more business focused. Don't lose who we are. The romanticism is beautiful, but you cannot only build on romantic. Romantic, we have to push it, it's like a shield and we can't hide behind it all the time.

00:49:36 Giovanni Binello: Last one, and you can't answer Caaaaaaat, so you have to find another one. What's your favorite wine?

00:49:42 Christophe Kaczmarek: My friend, I have 1000 wines in my personal cellar. Really? I have 1000 bottles and most of them are really different and everything, so... But you know what, I will tell you one wine, Luseoux Vintage 2021. It's a Gascony white wine nobody knows about. It's the only natural wine producer from the area. A crazy farmer working extremely well in the vineyards and in the different land because he do polyculture. So it's a white wine made of Petit Manseng, it's absolutely an amazing white wine that I recommend to everybody. It's cheap. It doesn't cost because nobody knows about it.

00:50:18 Giovanni Binello: Chris, it was a pleasure, it was a great conversation. Thank you so much for being on the podcast.

00:50:22 Christophe Kaczmarek: Yeah. Thanks a lot Giovanni. Thanks for the invitation