Die schoenste Marke im Getraenkemarkt aufbauen mit Thorsten Konrad

00:00:00 Thorsten Konrad: I mean, if you look from a design or branding perspective they all look exactly the same, and I think it's so weird that they all have this kind of heritage design and branding. It should be like the drink of such a modern target group, and such a kind of modern people. And we just thought, hey, where's the new? It starts with the liquids, the marketing stories, they always relate to that drink was drunk or was made by the uncle of the grandma, blah, blah, blah, all that kind of stuff.

00:00:32 And we got bored of everything that has existed more or less on the market because everything was exactly the same and everybody just copied the competitors.

00:00:44 We always knew we only have one chance. So if we wouldn't have come up with a packaging like this, I would think that we wouldn't exist. Honestly yeah, just like too many brands coming on the market, too many brands are already on the market. You only have one chance, so, You can't try out a few things and then change it and adapt it. You have to make it, in a good way or you are out.

00:01:10 I think we don't have any competitors, to be honest. Because we do everything completely different. The only thing that we have in common is that we share the same category, which is aperitif, and for sure I know that, we are way more pricey than more or less like everybody on the market. But the reason for that is that we stay there and we peel the lemon, with those hands, four times per year, here in Berlin. And there's no industrial process behind it.

00:01:34 Giovanni Binello: This is Dolia Talks with me, Giovanni Binello. Now, Dolia Talks is a show where we discuss with the best sales and marketing professionals in the beverage industry to discover the sales, branding and marketing strategies behind some of the best brands on the market. Now, our guest today is Thorsten Konrad, the founder of ODE.

00:01:49 So Thorsten is not your usual beverage professional. He has a background as a visual designer, and he started ODE in 2020 because he noticed basically all aperitif brands look the same. Today, ODE is widely regarded as the most distinguishable bottle on the market, and they have customers buying it just because they want to keep the bottle as a souvenir. So I will say it's a true branding masterclass. So this was a truly great episode.

00:02:10 We explored the principles of brand building and in general the value of design in the beverage industry, which is often ignored. so let's dive in and if you enjoy the episode, remember to subscribe to the show and leave a review on Spotify.

00:02:26 Hello Thorsten. Welcome to Dolia Talks.

00:02:28 Thorsten Konrad: Hi. Thanks for having me here.

00:02:30 Giovanni Binello: I want to start really from the origin story of ODE, you started without a real prior experience in the beverage industry and I'm super curious on how you got started and really the story behind the inception of this brand.

00:02:42 Thorsten Konrad: Thanks. First of all, thank you so much for giving us the opportunity or giving me the opportunity to be part of this podcast. I'm Thorsten, I'm one of the two co-founders actually of ODE. ODE is a wine-based aperitif.

00:02:55 The idea was a little bit different than I would say any other story within the beverage industry because we are both designers, we are not out of the industry at all. We've been designers before. Stefan, my co-founder, he was working on an agency side, and did a lot of branding stuff for national clients, but also international clients here from Berlin.

00:03:16 And I was working always like self-employed, but more than 12 years for the sports brand Adidas on various kind of projects, art direction, video production and so on. And we've been pretty good friends since 2012, and we always knew that we wanted to do something together, but actually we had no clue what to do. And then, we went out for dinner, more or less like half a year, and we always discussed the ideas that we had. And while we went out to dinner we always got asked: "what do you want to drink?" before the dinner starts, and yeah, we've just found this fact so weird that people back in 2019 they really took a lot of care on what comes on the plate, but everything that comes into the glass, it was more or less like always the same drink, which is a lot of sugar, a lot of artificial flavoring and coloring, and we thought, hey, there must be something better, something that also fits on what comes on the plate. And there was like no product like this, at least back in 2019. So someone had to do it. And, then yeah, we thought, hey, this might be a really really nice idea to jump into kind of that segment, without knowing what to do. And then, what we just basically did was analyze the market from our marketing perspective and we always thought there must be some like a third party who's producing the liquid, basically. And, so the outcome was like a 160 page PowerPoint presentation where we kind of analyzed the whole market. And then, I'm like of the southwestern part of Germany, and I know from my childhood onwards a few wine makers and I asked them to produce any kind of liquid for this kind of product that we imagined. But there was like no one who was interested. So we had to do it by our own. And luckily, whatever that means, but for us it wasn't like the worst thing that Corona came in so Adidas stopped all my contracts, so we had a lot of time and we used that time and started working on ODE and we did everything by our own. That means that the whole liquid is developed by our own. We analyzed more than 650 raw materials and yeah, we thought about like, how do we get the taste and the color out of it. And that was basically the starting idea of ODE.

00:05:49 Giovanni Binello: And was it tough being both designers? So without experience and without, let's say technical knowledge in the industry, was it tough to start this process of finding the right flavor? Finding the right ingredients? So how did you go through it?

00:06:03 Thorsten Konrad: I mean, it was. First of all, when we look, when we work with alcohol, it's always fun because there, there's this kind of effect of alcohol that hits in, which wasn't the worst. But we also learned on that. So, at the very first beginning, we started on a Friday night, but then pretty quick we kind of professionalized ourself and turned that more into a Monday morning and you don't have to drink that much to kind of get the taste, we learned that just like one drop is definitely enough. What means tough? For us, it was kind of a journey. And what's really crazy or like interesting about, uh, since, since upon today, we never questioned that. It took like half a year as I mentioned before to collect all the ideas.

00:06:45 And then, there was like this meeting where we sit together and we have to make a decision now. And since this decision was made, um, everything was for us like super clear in terms of like, okay, we have to do it. It was definitely not that easy because the first six months I would say we more or less learned on what we tasted and also described what we tasted. And that was definitely challenging, because the first tryouts it was more or less like, no, I don't like it. But then the other one was like, yeah, but what is it? What you don't like? And, This was definitely, or this definitely took some time to get the knowledge to kind of explain what you like and what you don't like. And that wasn't tough. It was more interesting than tough, I would say.

00:07:34 Giovanni Binello: And I would like to go back to that 160 pages PowerPoint you mentioned. What was the key insight in there that made you realize actually that space in the market for a new product in the aperitif space?

00:07:46 Thorsten Konrad: I mean, if you look from a design or branding perspective they all look exactly the same and I think it's so weird that they all have this kind of heritage design and branding. And it should be like the drink of such a modern target group, and such a kind of modern people, but everything relates to this very, all northern Italian brandish, thingy. And we just thought, hey, where's the new? It starts with the liquids, the marketing stories, they always relate to that drink was drunk or was made by the uncle of the grandma, blah, blah, blah, all that kind of stuff.

00:08:25 And it, it really, we got bored of everything that has existed more or less on the market, because everything was exactly the same and everybody just copied the competitors and we thought, hey, that's weird. There's like room for something new. There's room for like a new, complete new interpretation. And, the good thing is we don't have like any heritage at all. We are not out of the industry. There was like no family business involved. So we absolutely started at zero, and therefore everything that we did was more or less like, basically was already modern, because there was like no heritage. And I think sometimes it's good to start with absolutely zero and not like starting with copying others.

00:09:18 Giovanni Binello: And when you designed the brand and designed the product and the flavor and ingredients, did you have a specific consumer archetype or consumer segment in mind? Or did you do it for a general public?

00:09:31 Thorsten Konrad: I mean, it's kind of the thing, similar as I worked for Adidas. I always see myself in the target group, and therefore it has to work for us. And I think that's when we are happy, I guess more or less, everybody is kind of happy in that target group. And as we had like no other experience, That was definitely also like the most tough decision in terms of like, hey, does it really taste that well as we think that it tastes that well or is it just like us who are kind of happy with the result? And that was definitely like the most challenging thing, especially once we made the decision to release that baby. I still can remember the first ProWein that we've made, was kind of for me like super challenging because, we just appeared there, we booked a booth a few months in advance and then we went there and we thought those people here, they are all experts in tasting and we are not out of the industry at all and we should now explain them what we did, but we had no, no experience in that case. So we've been a little bit afraid I have to say. But the first ProWein, it went amazing. It was just like we had more than 800 tastings per day. People went absolutely nuts about it and everything was like super excited that there's something finally new on the market, and that tastes well, that looks completely different. So, yeah, it was kind of a success I would say.

00:11:10 Giovanni Binello: And you mentioned before there's a lot of traditional players in the industry, so was it always like this where you were the new ones, like the ones bringing something fresh? Or did you also find some tensions and pushback from the market, which was indeed that traditional and populated by traditional players?

00:11:26 Thorsten Konrad: No, I mean we, we did like a huge market research and for sure there are other small brands. I would never say that we are the only ones, but especially if you look into the world of aperitifs, I would always say more or less they look always the same or they taste the same. And it's always like way too artificial, there's usually no craft experience behind it. And yeah, we thought, hey, we have to change that. For me it's like people tend to spend a lot of money, especially later per day, when they already had a few drinks before maybe to spend a lot of money on gins or whiskey or whatever. But I personally see the aperitif, which should be on your lifestyle for always, but usually it should be like the first drink per day. And I would say it should also be the best one, and therefore it shouldn't be artificial, it shouldn't be too sweet. It should be just perfect in terms of what do you need today as a modern consumer. And that's definitely only that. It's enough. I mean, we also use a little bit of sugar for sure, because sugar helps us to play around with the aromas and push our aromas or sensors. But we just use sugar that is needed, and not like. The fourth amount of it, just because it's than everything else. And those are like small things where we really thought, um, a lot it. When we developed the drink, the liquid, but also the brand, like what is really needed and what can we leave out.

00:13:10 Giovanni Binello: And of course, also your brand and the bottle, the packaging is super, super differentiating. It's different from anything else that's on the market. And you, I think you notice it in every supermarket or or every place you look. In what measure do you think packaging and branding was part of your success compared to the product, and I, maybe I can reframe the question. Would the same product with a different branding have had the same success in your opinion?

00:13:37 Thorsten Konrad: That's a really good question. Also like with our history or background in terms of that we are not out of the industry at all. We always knew we only have one chance. So if we wouldn't have come up with a packaging like this, I would think that we wouldn't exist. Honestly, yeah, just like too many, brands coming on the market, too many brands are already on the market behind it. And I wouldn't think that you can't succeed. You only have one chance, so you can't try out a few things and then change it and adapt it. You have to make it in a good way or you are out.

00:14:14 And that's definitely helpful that we are both designers. But we never worked on a professional level before together. We've only been in France. And we also knew because whenever you work on something more than two and a half years, your families, your wives, your friends, they all also get a little bit nervous in terms of like, hey, when are you releasing the baby? And what is it? So there was also like a lot of pressure, I would say on our shoulders. So we so we had to do it in a right way. We always knew that we wanted to create a bottle that is that beautiful that you will never throw it away. So whether you use it to put a flower in - that was kind of the original idea, we failed on that because the wooden sphere doesn't allow to put a flower in - but at least most of our clients are still telling us that they keep the bottle, just because it's so beautiful and I think that's basically one of the best things that can happen to a product that it's not like buy it and throw it away and I don't care. When they touch it, when they feel it, you don't wanna throw that bottle away any longer. And that's just like, for us, a perfect feeling that we added that much of value to it, that whenever we do tastings, people love to have the bottle and keep, yeah, keep the bottle in their hand I would say.

00:15:41 Giovanni Binello: I'm curious also from your perspective. I spoke in one of the previous episodes with another founder of a non-alcoholic soda brand in Italy, and one phrase he told me really was, was super interesting for me, he said: "We actually had the product, the whole final product without having an actual product you could drink". Because what they did was they did before all the research, the brand, the distribution strategy, the social media communication. Was it the same for you or did you start from the recipe and then developed also branding, et cetera? So what came first?

00:16:15 Thorsten Konrad: Yeah, we did more or less both in terms of like, in the morning we always worked of the recipe. And then in the afternoon we did design work and we did that for more than two and a half years. But even once we made the decision, okay, that's kind of a final thing, it was still like a huge experience because there was no go to market plan or whatever. So then we rented a production hall, a little bit more than 120 square meters. And bought a few tanks and of, that up a little bit. And then we just put that on Instagram, more or less the bottle and thought, hey, we are going to release that but we are not out of the industry at all. Basically we have no clue in what we are doing there since, this is still like up to date since today, everything that we do is, we, always do that for the very first time. So there's like not like we, that we followed in terms of like that's how to do it. It was more like let's try that out and, maybe. If not, let's try another way out. It somehow has to work. But, we didn't know at this time what does work and, what not, there was like no third party, no agency, or consultancy, involved. We did everything by our own and it was more or less like learning by doing.

00:17:34 Giovanni Binello: how did it work this understanding the pricing and distribution? So did you do a lot of testing? Did you really find the core recipe, let's say at the, at the beginning? So how did this process work?

00:17:43 Thorsten Konrad: It was like asking around people. And then you always get answers and then you keep the answers in your head and then for sure we tried a few things out. And, I mean, at the end, everybody's kind of happy to, share the experience, they've made. and yeah, information is always around.

00:17:59 You just have to ask the right people. And for sure we know no one was in the industry. I can remember when we.. It's kind of a funny story. When we've been to the first ProWein, there was one of the biggest wine distributions coming in, and we didn't even know how many bottles fit on a pallet because we never sold a pallet before. And he asked for how much a whole container was. And we were like, oh my God. That's crazy because we didn't even know like how many bottles fit into a container.

00:18:28 Giovanni Binello: And in terms of the flavor, how did you understand that you reached the right flavor? Did you do also a lot of testing with customers, the panels? Did you do anything of like any research on different recipes? How did it work?

00:18:41 Thorsten Konrad: yeah, As we are both visual designers, we had mood boards in there basically that helped us come up with the ideas and come up also like with, which kind of botanicals we wanna play with. The good thing was that we had kind of a huge library of more than 600 different botanicals that we analyzed for more than two and a half years. We knew, or we still know exactly, what kind of alcohol, what's the amount of alcohol, what kind of percentages does it need to get the full amount of flavor and coloring out of any kind of botanical, whatever it was. And then, yeah, we played around with whatever fits together more or less, and then also visually fits into the mood board, which was basically.. Bright lemon was always like very summery, very fresh. And we tried to put those visual images into a liquid basically. At the end we had three recipes that we finalized. And then we did, we always did, some research with friends and family. But there was like no time for testing that on consumers. and everything was super small.

00:19:49 Giovanni Binello: So you have a product, you said you went to ProWein, you launched also on Instagram. Now that you are a bit more, a bit forward, let's say in your journey, what are the main sales channels for you? Are there still a lot of social media? Is there still a lot of fairs or did you change a bit the sales mix? How does it work now?

00:20:06 Thorsten Konrad: As ODE looks as it is, it definitely works really well on social media, but also on retail. And right now retail here in Germany is definitely a really interesting channel for us. As we are like sitting in two shoes, I would say, it works really well on wine distribution stores, But it also can work within liquor stores. That makes it really interesting. But then as we have like the visual, it also works in concept stores, where we are basically the only beverage brand, at all. And on the other hand, gastronomy bars, they love our products because it's basically the first time a good bar works with, a fresh wine product. Usually the most common drink or close drink, is a vermouth, which is, from a production wise, pretty similar. Not close, but similar. But vermouth is always like, not always, but mostly, older wines. We are completely different on that. We always use the freshest, Riesling white wine that we can get. And therefore, bartenders love this product because it's the very first time that they play around with fresh Riesling within their cocktails. And that's, those are all like the learnings where we now, once we did it, figure that out, hey, it's kind of a plus. Well, it's a cool thing that we figured out here, but we never thought about that before because we had no clue what we are doing here.

00:21:33 Giovanni Binello: If I look at your social media profiles, you do a lot of, I see events, a lot of collaborations also with influencers. What do you think is the impact of those initiatives, even if you measure them, did you see a positive impact in sales together with branding, or were they more like a branding, activity?

00:21:51 Thorsten Konrad: It's both. The good thing is, with our bottles, we make the people happy if they look at it. So wherever we appear with our bottles, it's just like a. Which literally people look at it. They laugh, they wanna touch it. And that's a good find, whether they buy the bottles, or not. I don't, I mean, I do care. In the firsthand it's just like we do all those events and sponsorings to say to the people that we are here, the good thing is, I think it's related to the visual, that we get so many requests. I think we get 10 requests per day, for sponsoring, whenever there's like any kind of fashion trade show, in Europe I think we get asked nowadays. So, It took us like really, really a lot, of time to figure that out, what's important for us and what's not. But on the other hand, it's for us, like, a pretty good marketing channel and those events are also like then a cheaper way of communicate and make leads or contacts. Because otherwise, I don't know, you have to book, huge visual boards across the country. And I think this would be way more expensive and also people should get in touch with our brand as we are right now. And we're still like, pretty young and pretty new. And also like we love to stay in contact with others and therefore I think it's for us the best way to do the promotion for our product right.

00:23:16 Giovanni Binello: And did you learn something from selling to the B2B segment that you're also applying to the B2C? I mean for you, how different are those segments in terms of approach and also how you approach sales and marketing, let's say?

00:23:28 Thorsten Konrad: As we are so small, more or less like everybody's doing everything, even if we now a little bit - we're right now a team of seven people - for sure kind of segmented ourselves and we do our learnings within each segment. And I think it doesn't matter if it's B2B or D2C, it's always kind of same thing. It's like what's the purpose of the product? Why? We think you should have or buy or whatever this product and what does the product make with you? I think that's always kind of the same thing. It doesn't matter what kind of channel it is, and we are still working on that, because it's not that easy to a hundred percent figure that out. But I think we are pretty close.

00:24:10 Giovanni Binello: And how did you approach distribution? Because speaking with like younger brands, it's usually a bit of the tougher point. I mean, getting to know the right market, getting to know the right distributors. So how was your approach and how did you open like the B2B market for ODE?

00:24:24 Thorsten Konrad: So when we started, as I mentioned before, we put just like one picture of the bottle on Instagram. And it was more or less, see where this baby goes. And we got orders across all Europe. And we thought, hey, we can ship across the countries. Doesn't really matter because, we had no clue on what we're doing there until the customs reached out to us like, hey guys, what are you, what are you doing there?

00:24:46 We're like, oh, okay. We didn't know that. And so that was kind of first half of the year. For sure a lot of D2C, but then we started off pros and B2B, all those kind of trade shows more or less across Europe. And we definitely figured out that this,B2B is for us really, really important, because it just like pushes us in different kind of channels that we never thought whether those exist, or how to get there. We just got the announcement that, or, not the announcement, but we'll deliver it by this week, that ODE will be part of an airline within their business class. ODE will be the drink for one year. And that's a contract that we've made last year at the ProWein. And those are like those things, whether you are there on those shows, and speak with the right people, or you're not, you're not there. But it's something that we never "forced" - we want to go in there - it was more or less like we, we stay there, open our desk in the morning, or booth and we wait and just like see that the good people will come to our place.

00:25:51 Giovanni Binello: What did you learn from launching on different markets compared to the German one? Were there any, was there any difference in internationalization or do you find like similar customer response?

00:26:02 Thorsten Konrad: We definitely find similar customer response. But at the end, there are like so stereotypes, and I think they are all right. So, being like in France, the French market, it's just like crazy in terms of for us, I think it's one of the best markets where we can be because you don't have to explain aperitif over there. Here in Germany, aperitif and Aperol is exactly the same thing, which is so weird because you explain half an hour on shows what you're doing there, and then, the response is yeah is it an Aperol?

00:26:38 So it's just like people always have kind of a learning curve and they just start on a different level. So in Southern Europe, it's just like way advanced and those people know exactly what an aperitif is. Coming to the northern, the visuals, or the, the bottle itself, it looks very, very designed. And I think therefore it's a huge plus in Denmark, in Sweden, because they are very design educated. And then we do also, Japan, a little bit, US a little bit.

00:27:07 And, at the end it's just like wherever we are, people are curious about the bottle. Finally something new. Because within the last, I don't know, 20 years, they all look the same. I know that, there've been like a lot of talented designers working on designing the labels and adding like different kind of stuffs and story to it. But they all.. At the end, it always stayed on the label. Or maybe they put the closure in a different color. And I think what we did with ODE was really like okay, pushing that bottle, into a complete different angle or place, and that makes people curious about it. And I just can remember like one guy coming to me, at the PCP in New York, and he said like, hey, I follow you, since three and a half years now on Pinterest, and that it's still like the sickest bottle that I've ever seen in my life. And I'm since 30 years within, this industry and, I can't forget this bottle. And, that is the good thing about this product is there so many bottle exists, but this one you will never forget, I guess.

00:28:11 Giovanni Binello: Did you ever consider opening like a store, like a flagship store? Because I see like the branding potential would be huge.

00:28:19 Thorsten Konrad: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I would love to, but yeah, we would definitely need a little bit more time. We still do everything by our own, but the production is done in-house. Everything is more or less like in-house besides of the wine. That's something that we get from our wine maker. But even that, this becomes a really close friendship, and we are pretty much working so close together on certain things and, Yeah. I would love to have our own flagship store, especially here in Berlin. I always look a little bit around on what exists. I think my wife, she would kill me for that. Because then I know it's a lot of more work, especially when it comes to gastronomy. But at the end I would love to, yeah.

00:29:03 Giovanni Binello: Yeah, Do you think like the same product could have been born in another country, like France or Italy or, because I see it really close as you mentioned, it's really close to more northern European culture. I see it very close to like the German and the also Berlin, specifically vibes. Do you think something similar would've been born in Italy? You mentioned like this. red, northern Italian product before, do you think the same brand could have come out of Italy or France?

00:29:33 Thorsten Konrad: I mean, yeah, if you have like the right people, then it would definitely, also came out of, um, other countries. I think it's more like, that we are designers. This is I think more important, for the whole product and all the like, how it tastes, how it behaves and all that kind of things because it's like not copying, but also like copying it's a bad word, but, if you kind of study, drink technology and all of that, you're already so deep within this kind of industry or production. And then you always know, okay, you have to do it in that way. Otherwise, it's just not possible.

00:30:10 And as we didn't know this, or we just didn't know that, that it's not possible, we kind of questioned everything and we always thought, hey, but we want to do it that way. Isn't that possible? And everybody told us like, hey, no one did that like that way before. And we're like, yeah, but doesn't mean that it's like that, it can't be done like that. And I think, this kind of way of living or whatever it is, is related to our design thinking brain, in terms of like challenge the status quo. And therefore I think it's kind of a mindset that is more important instead of the country I would say.

00:30:54 Giovanni Binello: Yeah. How do you compete with these kind of brands? I mean, because in the end you said, maybe you are focusing a bit more on, let's say, a niche consumer in some way. Maybe the ones that buy or don't buy Aperol or other like mass market brands. But do you ever find challenges in competing with these brands in their main markets? Because as you said, they're everywhere and I think they can spend in an ad campaign as much as you earn in one year, probably.

00:31:26 Thorsten Konrad: Yeah.

00:31:27 Giovanni Binello: What do you, you ever feel like that's challenging or do you feel like they're focusing on a completely different market than you are doing?

00:31:35 Thorsten Konrad: Uh, I would definitely say the second one. I think we don't have any competitors, to be honest. Because we do everything completely different. The only thing that we have in common is that we share the same category, which is aperitif, and this is always relates to kind of a pricing tag.

00:31:52 And for sure I know that we are way more pricey than more or less like everybody on the market. But the reason for that is that we stay there and we peel the lemon, with those hands, four times per year, here in Berlin. And there's no industrial process behind it.

00:32:08 Everybody else uses more or less completely different.. Or they produce their drinks completely different. And therefore, I'm quite happy that we don't look that much around. We just do our thing. We think that's how an aperitif nowadays should taste, behave, and all of that. And we just keep going. Maybe the others follow on that route, but, we don't follow others.

00:32:33 Giovanni Binello: Did you ever consider making ODE a no alcohol product?

00:32:38 Thorsten Konrad: Yeah, for sure. I mean, with such a modern look of the bottle, we often get asked like, hey, is it without alcohol? Personally, I drink alcohol, but I also have to say, I don't drink nothing that has more alcohol, volume than ODE. So it stops at 18.5 and I think that's, for me, it's already definitely enough.

00:32:58 On the other hand, we wouldn't.. We are also like working since more than two years on something that has no alcohol, but it's, from a technical standpoint, it's so difficult to come up with something that tastes similar, not in terms of similar as other or as our products that exist right now, but that they taste similar from the mouth feeling and the volume that you have.

00:33:25 That's really, really, really difficult to do so. And we always have this kind of internal guideline. I would say that we only release something where we, all of us is like 100% happy with it. And so I guess next year there might be something coming. I would love to see something coming out because I love that there is like a huge trend coming up, that is like alcohol free. But on the other hand, I also have to say with everything that exists on the market, right now, I'm not that happy.

00:33:54 I think it's not comparable right now. Which, on the other hand is also like a good thing because, it also I guess took for beer more than 25 years. I can remember in the early days alcohol-free beer, it was awful at the beginning. And it's a technology thing and this definitely needs some time.

00:34:15 And, we also want to take this time for us and not just like releasing something because it's written in the newspapers that there might be a trend. That's again, something that others can do, but that's not our approach.

00:34:28 Giovanni Binello: Yeah. If I think of non-alcoholic wine or non-alcoholic beer, the production process is completely different. And that's also why we get, as you said, a lot of lower quality. In no-alcohol wines compared to traditional wines. In your case, would the production process change a lot to produce a non-alcoholic product, or would it be similar?

00:34:52 Thorsten Konrad: The good thing about our alcohol is that the product stays stable, once you open it. Now if you put like the alcohol out, you have to add something into it that it keeps stable. Otherwise it's just like, you can also put, I don't know, milk and, orange juice together and after three days, you don't want to drink it, eh, so, it's always kind of like this. Then okay, what is it, what you're going to add to it? I mean, we rephrased our product as the natural aperitif. Given the fact that alcohol, I mean, it's kind of a natural, thingy, but not in that, I'm also not that stupid, and not in that high amount as we use it.

00:35:36 But every, I don't know, apple, juice, banana, there's also like a little bit of alcohol in it. It's a natural behavior that certain things remain stable. Yeah, coming back to your question, I also have to add that, within our current process, the alcohol really helps us to get the color and the taste out of it.

00:35:54 And, if you don't use that alcohol, you definitely get all the whalers taste out of it. Color isn't that big of a problem, but the taste, that.. the aromas, what we always wanna look for is how do we get them out of it, and that they remain stable.

00:36:13 If we now completely don't use any alcohol in there, we also have like way less taste. And that's something we are still like working on, that we have kind of the same amount of aroma, mouth feeling in there, but without alcohol. And that's not that easy.

00:36:33 Giovanni Binello: So now I would move towards the conclusion. We have this section which we call Quickfire, which is where I ask you a series of questions and I would like you to answer to those in a few sentences.

00:36:45 Thorsten Konrad: Mm-hmm.

00:36:45 Giovanni Binello: So let's say you could sit again at that dinner table where you were with your, your co-founder, and you had the idea for ODE. Would you tell yourself to start or would you tell yourself to have another idea and do something else?

00:37:01 Thorsten Konrad: I would definitely say to start again. It was a crazy ride so far and I'd love to continue that.

00:37:10 Giovanni Binello: What advice would you give to someone like you, who with a completely different background would love to start a beverage brand?

00:37:16 Thorsten Konrad: If I would have to start today, actually, really, consider all the options that you have and think about if it's the right one, because it's a tough market. It's definitely, especially in Germany, one of the toughest markets.

00:37:31 Giovanni Binello: Let's say you wake up tomorrow and you inherited a traditional beverage brand. You could think of like a traditional winery, or also a traditional beverage another beverage with a lot of budget, which are the first three things you do?

00:37:45 Thorsten Konrad: Redo the flavor in terms of use way less sugar. Rebuild the brand design. And the third one is remove everything that is not needed.

00:37:57 Giovanni Binello: Where do you see beverage sales heading in the next 10 years? In terms of channels, do you think we'll see a lot more of digital and D2C? What do you think the trends will be?

00:38:08 Thorsten Konrad: I think it's way less volume, but higher quality, so therefore it remains the same. Finally, more transparency, which is one of the worst things, I have to say, jumping into that industry is just like actually crazy sometimes when you see what's done within that industry. And I think this will definitely stop or open up a little bit more.

00:38:35 Giovanni Binello: Do you think the industry focuses enough on design or should, should they do something more?

00:38:42 Thorsten Konrad: They should keep what they're doing. That's good for us.

00:38:47 Giovanni Binello: That's right. What's one thing you believe about the industry that most people won't agree with?

00:38:56 Thorsten Konrad: yeah, I think that at the end it's not about branding, it's about the liquid. That liquid is the most important thing.

00:39:05 Giovanni Binello: Nice. Thorsten, it was a pleasure. Thank you for being on the show.

00:39:09 Thorsten Konrad: Thank you so much for having me. It was also like my pleasure of being part of that.

00:39:13 Thank you.